ABC 774 Drive with Patricia Karvelas
E&OE
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Now while the nation’s eyes are on the terror laws, the Abbott Government has listed two social security budget bills for debate in the Senate this week. The measures include changes to the Family Tax Benefit primary earners limit from $150,000 to $100,000 and a stricter means test for the Seniors Health Care Card. Another budget bill which is gaining a lot of controversy is depriving people under 30 years old a Newstart Payment. Social Services Minister Kevin Andrews joins us to discuss all of that. Hi, how are you?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
I’m well thanks Patricia.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Now Jenny Macklin says you’ve been misleading people on the New Zealand model and has provided a Parliamentary, the Parliamentary office has done an analysis of your comments and what the realities are that sort of argues and I’ll quote a particular part. It says that there is no evidence that the comments that you’ve made, we’ve been unable to find a waiting period that matches the description Minister Andrews has given previously. Do you still stand by this given that the evidence shows perhaps it’s a bit of a different waiting period?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
I do stand by it Patricia and I went to New Zealand and I discussed all of this with the Ministers, with the bureaucrats, with welfare agencies and indeed as I understand it the Parliamentary library has updated its advice to say effectively that there is a 28 day waiting period.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Do you concede though that there’s lots of ways you can get out of that 28 day waiting period?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Well the point is that in New Zealand when you go into the equivalent of Centrelink which is their Work and Income Department they say to you generally that you have to do a number of pre-activities before you can get a payment and go away and do them and that might be preparing a resume and it can include going to a seminar about getting a job.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And if you do all those activities you can get the payment though is that not right?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
You can but in New Zealand the data shows that approximately four in ten people never come back to the Work and Income Department, in other words they never seek nor get a payment because they go and get a job. That compares very favourably with Australia where after three months 30 per cent of people move off the Newstart Payment.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Now it’s interesting that the debate has now shifted very squarely on a one month payment period, whether you’re right or she’s right. Now I know that you’re saying you are and she’s still arguing, this is Jenny Macklin, that she’s right. You’re now talking about a one month payment period, not a six month payment period and a six month payment period is the period that you stipulated in the budget. Are you effectively abandoning your push (inaudible)..?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
No I’m not, in fact the talk about the one month was just an illustration that there are payment periods in different places around the world and the New Zealanders and I’ve said this all the time the New Zealanders take a different view that you have generally this one month period and as I said they get a triaging effect that four in ten people actually drop out, get a job and don’t require any welfare payment at all. But in our measures that are going to the Senate we maintain the situation that was the case and that is if you are under 30 and you’re capable of working full time, that is 30 hours or more a week, if you’re not a principle carer or a parent, you’re not a stream three or four jobseeker then if you’re not in work the expectation is that you should be in training so you can get a job.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Mr Andrews I’ve canvassed the crossbench consistently on some of these issues and I don’t think you have a chance, a chance at all of getting your six month waiting for Newstart though the Senate. Do you realise that it is close to impossible, the PUPs, even David Leyonhjelm whose on the right, they’ve all said they just won’t wear it. Given that is it time to start pushing for a different model?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Well what we’ve said is we’ve got a plan that we’ve put in the legislation which is going into the Senate, by the same token we are realistic and that is we know we have to get the support of a majority of the Senators to get anything through the Senate. There’s nothing new in that it’s been the situation for most of the Federation in Australia and if other parties in the Senate want to put some proposition for variation to me then obviously we will have a serious discussion about that, but we’ve got a proposition in the Bill which is what’s going to the Senate and we’ll see what discussions come out of the Senate.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So there’s two social security bills in the Senate this week, are they likely to be debated, are they likely to pass? What sort of deals are you working on?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Look it’s fluid in the Senate in that the legislation that’s being debated, the legislation that the Attorney-General’s introduced in relation to terrorism and associated matters has priorities. So that I believe will come first, and then my Social Security bills will follow so whether it’s reached this week or partly reached this week or goes into next week I don’t really know and that will depend on the business programme of the Senate.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And are you working with Labor on your bills instead having abandoned the crossbencher protest that was reported over the weekend?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Ah look everything that’s reported is not necessarily the truth Patricia, apart from what you write of course. But look we’re having ongoing discussions. I’ve had discussions with Jenny Macklin; we’ll have discussions with everybody in the Senate because we believe that what’s in these bills is in the interest of individuals to get people off welfare and into work. But as I said the reality is for any government that has to negotiate with the Senate, that’s been the practice for most of Australia’s federal history, then we will listen to any counter propositions that are put to us and those discussions will continue.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Given it will be difficult to negotiate on some of these things, has Labor indicated to you that the Family Tax benefit $100,000 payment income means test restriction and also of course the Seniors Healthcare Card changes, they’re the two that I think they’re most sympathetic to. Would you peel those out and get Labor to vote for them so you can at least get some of your measures through given you’ll just have an uphill battle as I see it?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Look I’ll be guided by the Manager of Government Business in the Senate as to the way in which we do this as the Senate has slightly different rules and approaches to things than the House of Representatives does. So we have to go by those procedures that operate in the Senate so we’ll be guided by that. But also obviously we’ll be looking to support for whatever parts of the legislation that we can get support for.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You need certainly the six month restriction on the dole, some of that passed, I think it begins in January next year, some part of that policy, so you need to get that passed through the Senate by the end of the year.
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Yes and look can I say that this is really part of an ongoing discussion about welfare. As you know we’ve got the McClure Reference Group that’s working at the present time, it’s due to report to us probably sometime in October hopefully, although that depends on their workload. They’re going to report and that’s going to canvas a whole lot of other areas as the discussion paper already indicated. So what I envisage is we’re going to have an ongoing discussion about welfare in Australia for months and maybe years to come.
When I dealt with welfare in the Howard Government it took us two terms of Parliament to get through some of the changes we were proposing at that time and now they’re generally accepted as being things that were necessary and appropriate to do. So I don’t see what happens in the Senate in the next week or two as anything other than the beginning of an ongoing conversation about these matters.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Before I let you go, Minister Kevin Andrews, I want to put this to you because this issue it seems to me to almost have been shelved I haven’t really heard a lot of talk about where it’s at, this is the Paid Parental Leave Scheme. It’s meant to start in July next year, that’s not very long away and given there’s no legislation that we’ve seen, when are we going to see it?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Hopefully soon Patricia, there’s been some technical issues about some of the aspects of that for example issues in relation to spouses who work on farms, issue in relation to other people in different occupations, for example female jockeys. How does this apply to them because they’re sort of in the position where they may at some stages be independent contractors and other…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And this of course comes from your National party base, and there’s been some (inaudible) from your backbench saying you’re not looking after the so called farmers wives and people who are running farms and may not be eligible for the Paid Parental Leave scheme. What could you offer them? What could you do to provide the payment for these people?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Well we think that actually most will be eligible but that’s what we’re working through at the present time. Most famers wives, and I grew up in a farming family, most farmers spouses, usually the wife often does work around the farm, often does the book keeping the accounts for the farm. So it’s just a matter of clarifying those sort of arrangements so that where possible they’re covered by the PPL.
PARTICIA KARVELAS:
Now the Labor Party and some of the welfare groups are still insisting that your statement about the New Zealand model, of four weeks waiting for the unemployment benefit, is incorrect. Are you going to modify any of your language around that or are you going to use the same sort of set of language to describe their scheme?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Well I was asked the question by Jenny Macklin in question time today and I answered that by basically stating the facts and that is, you know the New Zealand working age income support claimant has 20 working days from the day they claim a payment to certain activities before qualifying which therefore has the effect of a waiting period. And as I said what the evidence is from New Zealand is that four in ten people never go on to claim the payment because according to the New Zealand Work and Income Department they actually get into a job and that’s a much better outcome in terms of moving people from welfare to work than we have in Australia so we should be sensible in the sense of looking into this which is what I’ve done and I’d invite Ms Macklin to go and do the same.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Social Services Minister Kevin Andrews I’m thankful you’ve joined the programme this afternoon. Thank you.